Yesterday, I spoke with Dr. Lee Phillips. He’s a licensed social worker and sex therapist currently working on a book called ‘Sex and Love When You Are Sick’ (which I am SO EXCITED ABOUT).
You can keep up with Dr. Phillips below:
Site: www.drleephillips.com
IG: instagram.com/drleephillips
FB: facebook.com/drleephillips
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I’m also booking talks for the rest of the year. Please shoot me a note at kirsten at chronicsex dot org if you wanna book me! The topics I cover are listed here, and I’m always happy to create anything from writing to podcasts.
Transcript
Welcome to the chronic sex podcast! Chronic sex talks about how self love, relationships, sex, and sexuality are all affected by chronic illness and disability. That’s not all though. We’ll also touch on intersectionality, social justice, empathy, current events, and much, much more. Given the range of subject matter, this podcast is not suitable for those under the age of 18 and unless you have headphones in, you probably shouldn’t be listening to us at work. My name’s Kirsten Schultz and I’m your host.
Hey cuties. I am so sorry for disappearing over the winter. Again. This is becoming a habit and, to be honest, it is a mix of being ill, how my illnesses flare up during the very cold Wisconsin weather, and having a very critically ill pet. Gus has been dealing with an abscess since about Halloween and it’s just been really, really hard to kind of get that under control. He’s had to undergo a couple of surgeries and I’m having to do, like, wound care. It is not my favorite thing. Uh, but he’s made it to March and he’s doing pretty well and we’re just gonna keep on keeping on. As for myself, I picked up a couple of new diagnoses, um, really the main ones being Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, which I think I had already figured out on my own, but it’s really been made official, and also general hypermobility syndrome. So I’m very bendy. Uh, and I guess most people at the weight I’m at can, like, bend down and touch the floor and stuff. So yeah. Uh, I have been having to do really intensive physical therapy lately, um, and go through all sorts of things to try to get better. But, uh, slowly and surely it’s working. So we’ll get there. We’ll get there.
If you haven’t been keeping up with the site, I did add, um, at the end of January some things that I wanted to do as far as changing up the podcast. I really think that sometimes I don’t record because, I know, in two weeks I won’t be able to get out an episode and then it feels rude to, like, record an episode. And then just like not be on a regular schedule. So what I’m going to do is release new episodes on the first of every month and that will hopefully make me feel less pressured, less anxiety, and also still give y’all good content. For those of you who participate in the chronic sex chat on Twitter, I am also moving that to the first of the month, although okay. This month is an exception because there’s hockey tonight and um, it’s like playoff time. So I’m going to be moving chat to the 3rd of March, um, just for this month and we’ll see what else I need to change as we get there. But that’s kind of updating wise what’s going on. Um, I did get a grant while I’ve been away from the Effing Foundation. I am working on a way to create a guide for people on how to talk to their doctors about sex. So the first portion will be working on a survey, blasting it around the world – Well No, I’m really probably going to stick to the US just for ease of dealing with like the same medical system I’m in – but you know, if you are in the US please feel free to keep an eye out and I will try to, um, you know, put some updates here on the podcast feed as well when that is up for people to take. The other thing I want to mention is I did start a second podcast. Now I think given everything I just said, people probably think I am doing too much, um, which naturally I always am. But this second podcast is somehow less work intensive then this one and I feel less pressure to do it. It’s called the Spooky Sconnie Podcast. That’s s p o o k y s c o n n i e. And it’s all about the paranormal creepy, spooky, criminal, and weird stuff from the state of Wisconsin. So, um, I’ve just covered a really cool case from Taliesin, which is Frank Lloyd Wright’s home about an hour away from me, and how was part of a mass murderer. So there you go. If you enjoy true crime or cryptids or anything like that, and want to learn more about Wisconsin or you just can’t get enough of me and my voice – I know it’s so hard – you can head there and I’ll put some links in the show notes for you to check that out if you are interested.
Kind of the final update here before I go into today’s episode is that last April I got laid off from both of my contract jobs I had at the time. And unfortunately I haven’t been able to find anything that is substantial and stable. I’ve been doing a lot of freelance writing, which I love to do, but um, the bills have been piling up for awhile now and I’ve kind of reached critical max here. So I’ve got a Target wishlist and an Amazon wishlist that I will put in the show notes for some things that I need or that could be really helpful, um, to dealing with my health issues or for on the house or, um, there’s a lot of stuff on the Amazon list for the Guinea pigs, so even if you just want to spoil them, uh, there’s plenty of ways to do that. Both of those entities will send me stuff directly so you don’t have to worry about that. Um, I think there’s one or two other wishlists I have that will do the same thing. So if you see another wishlist in there, that is why. Um, but definitely I would say the things on the Amazon list take priority because a lot of it is stuff that, um, I need to replace something that is very smelly and I can’t have in the house anymore or stuff to help with my, um, hypermobility or other pain. So if you can help that, be cool. If you can’t, no worries. I’ll also post like financial support links in the show notes in case that’s more your jam. I will take anything at this point, but mostly I just need a little help getting through especially this time period where I haven’t met my health care deductibles or prescription deductibles and um, having to pay for all that extra stuff on top of all the bills I already have is a lot.
Now that we’ve gotten done with that downer… Today I am talking with Dr Melvin Lee Phillips Jr. He is a licensed social worker, sex therapist and has done a lot around chronic illness and chronic pain. And he was actually working on a book coming out sometime soon – hopefully knock on wood – called Sex and Love When You Are Sick. So without further ado, since it’s already been 10 minutes, here is my conversation with Dr. Phillips.
Kirsten: Hi, Dr. Phillips. How are you?
Dr. Phillips: Great. How are you doing?
Kirsten: I am so wonderful. I’m so excited to talk to you today. Um, for people who I don’t know, have been living in a cave and don’t know who you are, could you kind of give a brief synopsis of your entire life, uh, just to get them caught up?
Dr. Phillips: Yes, I’d love to. So my name is Doctor Melvin Lee Phillips Jr and I am a licensed psychotherapist and a sex therapist out of Washington DC. Um, I’ve worked in several, uh, mental health and substance abuse treatment settings, including outpatient community mental health, inpatient treatment and private practice for the past 12 years. I’m a licensed clinical social worker. I’m also a speaker and I’ve lectured on topics including preventative services, anxiety and stress management care giving stress, depression in the elderly, mindfulness and cognitive strategies for chronic pain at the call decision making and the assessment of mental disorders. I’ve also had the great opportunity of publishing for the Journal of Bachelor in social work where I conducted a research study on Lgbtq affirmative teaching at historically black colleges and universities, understanding program director views. Uh, I hold a doctor of education degree in organizational leadership with an emphasis in behavioral health from Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.
Dr. Phillips: And I hold a master of social work degree from Norfolk State University. I’m also an adjunct professor with the Master of social work program with the School of social work at western New Mexico University. I teach in their online accredited a MSW program where I teach advanced social work research methods, clinical assessment, diagnosis, research methods and field practicum. And I’m currently in private practice. I’m in a group private and Washington DC called the Capitol Hill Consortium for counseling and consultation where I specialize in treating chronic illness and sexual health. Um, so a little bit about me too. Back in 2012, I was diagnosed with Lyme Disease and that kind of really fueled my fire to help those with chronic illness. I also had chronic TMJ disorder, which was a pain as well. Um, and so that I was a psychotherapist working back home and Virginia when I was diagnosed with those. So I started working with uh, individuals that had chronic pain, individuals that had chronic pain due to chronic illness and I was a geriatric psychotherapist.
Dr. Phillips: But then I started having, uh, people coming in that were from the ages 18 to 40, that had different autoimmune diseases, everything from multiple sclerosis to Lupus to fibromyalgia pots syndrome. And they were explaining to me that they had a lot of low desire for sex and also sexual dysfunction. So when I moved to Washington DC, I ended up taking my chronic pain, a program with me and I started a chronic pain group at the group practice that I am now working on. And I started getting very interested in sex therapy. I was like, you know, I need to link both of these together. I want to specialize in both of these areas. So I started doing that and that’s really where the idea came to write Sex and Love When You Are Sick because I wanted, I think it’s important like if you specialize in something and you have experienced and it, and you talk about it, I think it’s important to write about it. And that’s really where I got my passion to do this. Um, I was having several people, you know, and couples coming in talking about how they are not sexual anymore due to illness, how they want to reclaim their sex life. And I was like, well, I want to help people with that. So that’s where the idea came.
Kirsten: So cool. And I, I think that there’s so much more of an impact that we can have on the world when we take things that are really personal to us. Like, you know, having a chronic illness or dealing with chronic pain and turning that into our passion and our life’s work, there’s just something so much more rewarding. Um, because you’re giving back to like your own community and furthering the cause. I think it’s just really, really cool.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah. And you’re giving people hope, you know, because uh, when you have a chronic illness, it’s absolutely earth shattering and there’s so much emotional distress that comes with it. You know, there’s a crisis phase that you go through in the beginning and you really do feel like your body is broken. There’s this broken sense that comes over you and then you get these wild mixed feelings when it comes to sex and emotions and how my, how is my body going to react? How can I, how can I be in my body again? So one of the things that I do with my patients is teach them acceptance and how to be back in their body again. And that’s very hard, especially in the beginning stages of therapy. Sometimes they look at me and they’re like, I’m not fucking doing that. Like, okay, well let’s talk a little bit more about it. So I do a lot of motivational, like interviewing. Like what would it be like if you were to start coping with your illness? Being able to accept things because we know it’s chronic, it’s not going away. And they start to get in that mind frame and we start to look at the possibility. I think it’s critical to look at what’s possible instead of once was once, once achievable, right? It’s looking at what can I do in this moment?
Kirsten: Absolutely. And I think it’s so key that you’ve roped and motivational interviewing. Um, I in 2015 & 2016 I was working for the UW-Madison Department of Pediatrics and kind of assisting basically like all 40 doctors, which wow but also, um, mainly assisting kind of the lead of the department. And one of the things that I got to do a lot of was actually, um, help create and provide materials for basically like UW’s, um, motivational interviewing expert. And so I got to learn a lot about that and about how helpful it is to really cater life changes to when somebody is ready and prep them to get to the point where they’re ready to make those changes. And I think it’s so key when we’re talking about illness and pain, right? And how difficult it can be to make changes for our own benefit, whether that’s changing up our diet or, um, learning how to move our body again, or even learning how to set realistic expectations of ourselves. Um, how did you kind of find motivational interviewing? Was it through all of the extensive amount of schooling that you’ve done?
Dr. Phillips: You know what, that’s part of it. But you know, I didn’t mention this, but for the first five years of my career as a psychotherapist, I worked in substance abuse treatment and I was able to watch people go through the stages of change, which is, you know, pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and then maintenance. And I think people have an illness. They also go through that. There’s a denial factor that comes with the, um, when you don’t want to believe that. So I really liked working in substance abuse treatment because I was able to watch my clients grow and succeed. And I’ve been able to watch that with people that have a chronic illness. You know, a lot of the people that were in my programs back when I worked in substance abuse treatment, they had chronic pain. Uh, I’ve had people that have had trauma – there’s this big link between trauma and chronic pain. One of the best books to ever read for that, I think is The Body Keeps Score. It’s an amazing book. Uh, you know, I see a lot of that in my practice. So that’s where the motivational interviewing piece really came from because you know, a lot of people that come in, uh, to my practice, there is this shame. There is this denial. They don’t want to believe they have an illness. And then I watch them. Sometimes there’s this contemplation stage where they may come in first where they have one leg over the fence saying, ‘I know I need this, I need to take care of my body, I need to try to work on accepting this. And then there is this other part of them where they don’t want to, they don’t want to because they really want to try to live the life that they have. And it’s almost like kind of having to step out of a body and go into a new one. It’s like the new normal of your life. And I think that’s so hard.
Kirsten: Oh, absolutely. And I think that’s a really great way of putting it, stepping into this new body. Um, I think for so many people, too, one of the tricky things with chronic illness is how unpredictable your abilities can be from day to day.
Dr. Phillips: Absolutely. It’s so, it’s so much uncertainty.
Kirsten: Yeah. So it’s almost like having to go through that process every day, right? Of waking up and assessing where your body is at that moment and saying, okay, well today is not going to be a day to run errands. It’s going to be a day for Netflix.
Dr. Phillips: Right. And you know what? I tell my patients that I’m like there, you may have a day where you wake up and you feel like you can get up, you can do a few things around the house, you can go run errands, but then you wake up you, you may wake up one day and you can’t even get out of the bed. And that’s okay. You know, when people go into treatment, a lot of times they’re like, I have to do this, I need to do this. So one of the things I talk about with my patients is something called pacing for pain, where if there’s a task you want to get done and there’s a lot of things you want to do, take one at a time and then rest. Then the next day accomplish something else if you can. And people have a hard time doing that because when you’re healthy, you can get up and do every damn thing, right? It’s like, let me go run my errands, let me clean my house, let me go out with my friends, let me do that. So it’s, there’s this adjustment period that comes with it. And I think that’s a big struggle. What’s interesting is that psychotherapy has now become the cutting edge treatment for chronic pain. We’re seeing that more in journals. We’re seeing it in the Psychotherapy Networker. There was a great article on how chronic pain, uh, is, is when you have chronic pain, it’s so important to have therapy and how mindfulness meditation can be such a big help as well.
Kirsten: Oh, absolutely. There’s a great app that I love called Buddhify that goes through different types of meditation and they actually have, um, a section all about illness and pain. And it has been, I think since I found it in like 2013 – Jesus. It has been one of my go-to things for when I am feeling awful or having a lot of pain. Um, I think probably my favorite meditation track on there talks about the narration of our pain and how yes, there’s pain, but then we often experience fear and anger and frustration and we add that narrative to the pain and the pain becomes so much bigger then where it specifically is.
Dr. Phillips: That’s right. That’s right. There’s a lot of emotions that come with it. And so that’s why psychotherapy is so critical. It’s being able to come into a safe space and process your anger, process, your anxiety. It’s really about support when you’re treating chronic illness on the psychotherapy. And you know, another thing that I do with my patients has helped them navigate the medical health system. How do you, how do you talk to your doctors? What do you want to know? Because I have so many people that come in and they’re like, yeah, I was told I have fibromyalgia but they don’t know why I have it. Or you know, I was told to take this medication but my doctor didn’t really talk about the side effects because they only had 15 minutes to see me.
Dr. Phillips: There’s all of these factors that come into play and so there is this big sense of support that has to happen and when I’m seeing a couple, we really look at, well, how can we make that adjustment in your partnership? You know, the one healthy partner has a lot of fear and anxiety because they’re like, am I going to be able to be able to take care of you? Can I, you know, there’s a great deal of anxiety with the healthy partner and that’s also going to be in my book as well. I’m going to talk about what happens to the healthy partner and you know, the care giving stress syndrome and how a couple can that, I think that’s going to be a critical piece.
Kirsten: It’s so important. I think so often those of us who are dealing with pain and illness kind of get wrapped up in making it through the day and making it to the next day without realizing how much our illnesses are affecting the people around us and how much that illness is affecting our relationships with those people. So, you know, whether it’s with a parent or family, um, or, or intimate partners or friends, I think it’s really important to kind of take that step back and try to see how our illness and how we’re handling our illness even is impacting those around us and kind of check in with them. Right? Like are you okay? Do you have questions? Do you want to talk about something?
Dr. Phillips: Right? So one of the you, that’s a really great point that you bring up. So one of the things that I do in therapy is really have them practicing communication with each other because there’s this idea that we automatically assume how our partner is feeling or loved. One is feeling when we don’t. So ask in those questions, what can I do to help you? Um, do you need me to do something for you? Do you need me just to listen? There’s this thing called, you know, when I, when I do sex therapy is sexual communication and sexual empathy. Uh, what do you need from me when it comes to doing things for you when it comes to sexual pleasing. So we do a lot of that. What I find with people when they come into session, there’s these two different types of needs that we have, right?
Dr. Phillips: We have emotional needs, which is trust, honesty, communication, respect. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have sexual and erotic needs. I’ve worked with couples and people were, a lot of times they just need to have damn good sex and the relationship will fix itself. Yes, there’s that. But then I had, there’s this other end where they don’t even want to have sex because there’s so much isolation or there’s so much anger and depression and anxiety. So we work on having them get more emotionally connected so they can have sex. So it could go either way. When I work with single people, because you don’t have a lot of people that come in that have disabilities and chronic illness that want a date. They want to date. They’re like, you know, I want to feel pleasure, I want to be with someone, but I feel so judged. And you know, I had a patient one time who came in and she has lupus and what was so heartbreaking is that our hands turned purple from the disease. Like they looks like our hands are bruised. And she went on a date with a guy and they’d been chatting for a while and they sit down at dinner and he sees her hands and she was like, yeah, I have lupus. He got up from the table and left.
Dr. Phillips: It’s just, it’s heartbreaking. So there’s this hell that needs to happen and how do we navigate that and how can we date and be, you know, cause if you feel that way, Gosh, you’re not even thinking about being sexual. There’s that idea where you’re broken. Because yeah, with chronic illness you may look fine on the outside, but it’s an invisible illness.
Kirsten: Right. There’s, um, there’s this really great photo. I’ll see if I can find it to, to send you a link and post it for people, but, um, where it’s kind of somebody’s back. Um, I think it’s more like an illustration type photo, but it’s like, ‘oh, you know, this is what you see and this is what you don’t see.’ And I think it’s supposed to be for fibromyalgia. So you’ve got this illustration of this person’s back, it’s just a normal back. And then the next one is, you know, all of these nerves that are kind of on fire and shooting angry ouchy feels – that’s the technical term – and I think it’s just such a great illustration to kind of show that. Um, but I was also thinking about too, um, how Selma Blair was at the Oscars.
Dr. Phillips: Oh my gosh. Did you – I cried. I really did. I got extremely emotional because I went on the daily mail and I watched the video of her walking and how she started to cry and how she looked at the Paparazzi and she said, you know, it was so hard to come out, but I wanted to be here and man, it really from someone that’s experienced chronic pain, but from someone who treats it, it really moved me. And what’s happened since then with her? Just the attention she’s bringing it to, to the front of what MS is. It was, I don’t know. I don’t know. What was your reaction to it?
Dr. Phillips: I have so many feels. So I was in San Diego Sunday night and um, had just gotten in so I didn’t really watch the Oscars. Um, but, but to be, you know, six hours away or whatever from some of them are walking the carpet was fun. Like one, that dress is gorgeous.
Dr. Phillips: Oh, I loved that. I the colors – pink is my favorite color.
Kirsten: Oh God. It’s such a great color. It’s such a real color.
New Speaker: It is.
Kirsten: I, I really loved how she’s got this great quote about how, um, you know, she is working hard and some days her brain might be foggy and other days she might drop things or fall. Um, but she’s disabled and she’s still here doing the damn thing kind of kind of vibe.
Dr. Phillips: And isn’t that amazing? Such a great message to people with chronic illness, not to ms, but everyone that’s suffering from a chronic disease or illness an amazing message. Um, you know, it very touching and just a lot of strength. And I commented on her Instagram. I was, I was kind of cool man. She liked my comment. I told her that – I said you made my heart melt. Um, I’m so glad and I think I’ve said it. I’m so glad or happy that you pulled through and she liked my comment. You know, I actually sent her a message about my book. Um, she hasn’t responded because you know, when there’s famous like that, they probably get all kinds of messages and you know, it says request. So if they don’t follow you, I don’t know how it works on Instagram, but anyway, I sent her a message about my book because I just want, I just want so many people to know about it. I mean there’s not many books out there on sex and chronic illness, so.
Kirsten: There really aren’t. And they’re, Oh God, we need, there’s such a need. There is such a need. Um, and I think the more information we get, you know, the better things will become overall. It’s kind of the same thing about representation, right? The better representation we have, the better representation we can get, cause it’s kind of a self fulfilling cycle.
Dr. Phillips: Um, you know, it’s when, you know, it’s really great too, is that the BBC news contacted me. I was on the phone with them at 8:00 AM this morning and they were asking me about the book because they have a podcast out there called Ouch about Disability. And so they called me and she was like, ‘you know, I usually don’t talk to people unless their book is done.’ She said, I, you know, ‘I heard about your book and what you’re doing and I think this is amazing. And I’ve been,’ she said that she’s been researching, you know, disability and sex. So she wanted to know more about it and I told her about it and she goes, ‘I definitely want you on the podcast. We’ll be doing something this spring.’ And I told her, you know, I was doing a lot of promoting for the book and she thought that was great. So there is a need. I mean, I’m hoping there can be foreign sales with this book. I really do because I think it’s going to touch a lot of people that, hey, you know what I mean? What kind of like what Selma said, you know, I may have this and I may have this, but guess what, I’m living and I’m learning how to live and I can be sexual because you know, sex is amazing. There’s so many things that you can do and that’s what my book is going to talk about. You can get so creative. There’s this idea that you have to have penetrative sex for it to be amazing and you’ve don’t, that’s bullshit. I mean, you can get so creative, um, when it comes to touching, when it comes to kissing, when it comes to licking, when it comes to stimulization, all of that is amazing. And so that’s what I want people to know as well, that, hey, you don’t have to have an orgasm to have pleasure. Yes.
Kirsten: Yeah, yeah. That part I think is so important because we have so many people for whatever reason, who, um, you know, can’t have an orgasm, whether that’s like a specific medical condition or because of, um, you know, medications or other treatments.
Dr. Phillips: Fatigue. Don’t even get me started. We could probably have a whole conversation about fatigue, but yeah. You know, fatigue and then erectile dysfunction, vaginal dryness. I mean, all of that can be due to a chronic illness and pain. And then it goes back to just the desire, you know, not having the desire for it. And you know, I think what we have to realize as Emily Nagoski said this, which I love cause she, her book Come As You Are is amazing. And she was talking about how ‘pleasure is the measure.’ It doesn’t matter about your orgasm, it doesn’t matter about your sexual functioning. Yes, we need those things, but we can also just receive pleasure by doing other things. I saw this video one time, it was this guy and he was disabled. He fell off of a building. So he was paralyzed from his waist down and he couldn’t feel anything of course, but he wanted to still feel sexual. So he ended up going to this, um, tantra worker and I watched this and my sexual assessment attitude reassessment class for my AASECT certification. And so she, she did this thing on him where she liked masturbated his thumb. And it was amazing. He ended up like having so much pleasure from it and enjoyed it and it just really touched me. I actually got quite emotional watching it.
Kirsten: That’s so cool. I think, um, there’s a lot to be said for exploring zones that may be erogenous to us that may not be erogenous to other people. Um, like for me, and for a lot of people, right? Uh, like the neck or right behind the ear are very erogenous, but thumbs can be erogenous, toes can erogenous – you know, what is pleasure to one person? What is pleasurable might not be pleasurable to the next person. But that goes back to this whole thing of finding your new normal, right? Finding what is good in your body and also willing to open, being willing to open up yourself to experiencing pleasure, um, and recognizing your body as an instrument of pleasure and not just as an instrument of pain and torture.
Dr. Phillips: Oh yes. You nailed it. That’s exactly what the whole book is about. Especially the book is designed like an arc. So it’s going to talk about the problem and then it goes into what you can do, what’s possible. So looking at your body from a different perspective and receiving some type of pleasure. What can I still do? It is that new normal with your body. And I think that’s the struggle for so many people. And so that’s why we do talk about the acceptance piece that comes with it. Because to get there and to do those things, you know, you have to want to, you have to want that desire. And so if we can work on that, then we can definitely get to that part. So that’s really important what you said, and that’s really the whole premise of this book and what it can do for people.
Kirsten: So when you’re working with couples, um, and you already touched on this a little bit, right, about anxiety and fear from both ends. Um, well, what are some of the major roadblocks you see in, um, you know, handling illness together versus having it almost like a nonconsensual polyamorous partner in a relationship?
Dr. Phillips: So what I see is the biggest roadblock with couples is the isolation that comes, there’s this like polarization that comes between both of them. You know, one partner feels broken because of their illness. They don’t feel like they could go further and have sex. There’s a lot of, um, shame that they have that they’re having to deal with. And the other partner is afraid that they may hurt the partner or they are so afraid and they have fear that they’re not going to be able to help them in some type of way. And the other partner is afraid that the partner may leave. So there I work with a lot of that. So there’s the emotional piece. First, there’s the anger and a lot of fear of being abandoned. Um, the abled partner has that and the healthy partner, um, talks about, well, what can I do and will we ever have in this intimacy again? So when you’re talking about consensual non-monogamy, which I think is very, I’ve actually had couples open up their relationship because, hey, I can’t give you pleasure. I can’t give you what I used to be able to do, so why don’t you go and do that? And I, and we’ve talked about that in therapy too, with me being a sex therapist, they feel comfortable to go there. So that’s a big piece of it. I see it more interesting with, with um, queer couples or gay couples that, you know, they’re fine with opening up, but when I have heterosexual couples, there’s a little bit of a struggle with that. Like one partner may want to open it up and some do not. But then again, I’ve got kinky couples, I’ve got BDSM, I have all types of people that come in. So we look at what can we do to receive pleasure.
Kirsten: That’s so important. So important. When does your book come out? Have you, have you had a date yet?
Dr. Phillips: Well, um, the proposal will be finished by May. I’m working on the outline right now and it’s getting there. I have to complete two sample chapters. I’ve got some amazing mentors in my life who were overseeing the book. Um, my editor is actually a mentor of mine. She actually just released her latest book, which is called When You’re The One Who Cheats: 10 Things You Need To Know. She, she’s a sexologist and she’s fantastic. So she’s guiding me through this process. And then once the proposal is done, I’ll be sending it to quite a few literary agents in New York. I’ve got a few agents who are interested, but they want the proposal done and I’m going to send it off and hopefully they can pitch it to a great publisher. That’s the goal. But this pre-publishing promotional plan is really important. They like to see how you’re marketing yourself while you’re working on the proposal. And the goal is when the book is finished, uh, get back on podcast and promote it and talk more about it. Um, and hopefully it will receive some great attention and you know, cause like you said, it is needed and if I’m already promoting it this, well now I can only imagine what this could happen, what this could do when the book is finished.
Kirsten: Oh, absolutely. I think it’s going to be such an important piece of literature of um, and, and, and I can already see like talking to you how it might incorporate some interesting sense of humor and be a really enjoyable read and Oh God, thank you. Because I am so tired of reading dry boring shit.
Dr. Phillips: This won’t be dry boring shit. You know the beginning of the book, well the beginning of the book is deals a little bit with science. I want readers to know what happens in the brain with illness, what occurs. And the reason why I want to write about that is because you know it’s always based on what I’ve experienced from a psycho therapist. I just have patients coming in and saying, you know, I don’t know what this illness is doing to my body. So one of the things that I’m going to talk about is nociceptive pain, which is pain due to an illness. So there’s going to be a part in there. And then the third chapter is going to talk about the intersection of chronic illness and sex. Like what happens with desire and arousal and different sexual dysfunctions that can happen. So again, it’s going to talk about the problem that then we’re going to go into what’s the new normal and what’s going to happen. And it’s going to be a book for poly people, Kinky people, non binary, Queer, all kinds of folks. I’m going to have case studies in it where I’m going to have gay, you know, polyamorous couples and it as well. So it’s going to be a book for everyone and that’s what I’m excited about.
New Speaker: So that’s so needed too. Have you heard of Dr. Karen Blair?
Dr. Phillips: I think so. That name sounds so familiar.
Kirsten: She runs her own little research core. Um, she’s Canadian. She and her wife run it and it’s basically she was in Undergrad, um, studying sexuality and all these books they were having them read were very cis heteronormative. She was like, ‘I don’t see myself in these books. Like what the fuck?’ Basically turned around and created a lot of research, um, about queer couples and Trans couples and you know, everything that’s not embodied in the cisheteronormative research. She’s, I think she’s done now. She did a really important study on attitudes in our community like after the Pulse shooting and then did a follow-up I think a year later. So who really, really important work. Um, yeah.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah. That’s why I want to write about this. Come up in, you know, I want to write about it in a different Lens. That’s the, that’s the whole goal of this book. And I’m an openly gay therapist, so I have a lot of queer people in therapy and they’re, they’re amazing and there needs to be another voice out there. So that’s why I’m doing this.
Kirsten: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, like, as a fellow queer person, I don’t have words to tell you how excited and stoked and happy I am.
Dr. Phillips: Great. I’m so happy that you are. That’s wonderful. That’s great for me to hear. That’s motivation for me, so I appreciate that.
Kirsten: So let’s talk about the extra fun stuff now. Are you prepared?
Dr. Phillips: I am ready.
Kirsten: What, Dr. Phillips, is your favorite curse word?
Dr. Phillips: Fuck. Isn’t it fabulous? It’s such a great word.
Kirsten: I say I, I talked a little bit about this before, but like it’s really versatile. Oh yes.
Dr. Phillips: Yes. That’s why I love it. Like are you fucking doing, hey, you want to fuck right?
Kirsten: It can be sexy. It can be angry. It can be, um, funny like runs the emotional gamut.
Dr. Phillips: Exactly. That’s why I love it. So that’s so important as a therapist. Oh yeah. I mean I say it in session all the time.
Kirsten: I need to move to you come to DC.
Dr. Phillips: There’s a lot of queer people here and a lot of poly people and non binary and it’s a fabulous place. It’s very liberal, very progressive place.
Kirsten: I should, I mean I really, I am that one person that doesn’t live anywhere where there’s like a subway or a metro. So I really actually like riding them. Like I am the perfect person to live in either New York or Chicago or DC.
Dr. Phillips: You’re in Madison, Wisconsin?
Kirsten: I am. Yes.
Dr. Phillips: It’s cold there.
Kirsten: Oh Lord it’s fucking freezing. Well, so I was in, I was in San Diego at the beginning of this week. I’m doing a talk, which was fantastic. And it was 60 degrees. Yeah, it’s gorgeous out there. It was so beautiful. And I stayed like right on the beach. I needed that. I just like left my sliding door open on my balcony and like and see the ocean from my bed.
Dr. Phillips: Oh, that’s amazing. And it’s always so needed to get out of your environment. You know, I talk about that in therapy. Can you get out of your environment and go somewhere? So Smart, oh healthy. It’s so healthy. And you know, a lot of folks, um, I have a chronic pain management group and a lot of them in the group have fibromyalgia. So the cold weather really, really, really fucks with them. So, you know, I always recommend the beach getting out of the area and sometimes they can do that and they feel amazing and they come back to DC and they’re like, dammit.
Kirsten: Yup, Yup. I felt great. Uh, Monday was fantastic. I gave my talk that night. I went out with friends like, yeah, to a queer bar and we shut it down like, oh, I mean in my defense it closed at midnight, like not 2:00 AM, but…
Dr. Phillips: So you shut it down.
Kirsten: I shut it down. Um, and still felt great the next day. Um, but I got home Tuesday and the Wednesday morning was like, it was like I was Frankenstein walking around.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah. But you had fun though, so that’s great.
Kirsten: I did and it was really, it was really good work. I was speaking on a panel about sex and disability actually. Oh, I love it. At San Diego State and uh, with a couple of other really, really great sex educators like Robin Wilson-Beattie who runs Sexabled and Andrew Gurza as well. And to even spend time near either of them is, it feels like a blessing, but to like speak on a panel with both of them was weird. Like in the best way possible.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. That’s wonderful. What a great opportunity. Y
Kirsten: eah. I, I got unofficially adopted by Andrew’s mom, so I think I’m part Canadian now. Oh, is that how this works? I don’t know. Yeah, you’re, you’re totally part Canadian. It works. Cause I have a lot of Canadian things. I feel like I was already honorarily Canadian. Um, what is your favorite thing to do to take care of yourself?
Dr. Phillips: Mindfulness. Meditation. It’s fucking amazing.
Kirsten: So good. I, I really love doing loving kindness meditations where you like think the farmers that helped pull together stuff for your breakfast. And like my husband kind of makes fun of me a little bit for it, but cause like I tried to get him into it for awhile and we were listening to one of the meditations and it’s like say thank you to the farmers and so he’ll just, he’ll randomly still to this day it’s been like five years will be like ‘thanks farmers.’
Dr. Phillips: Oh that’s hilarious. That’s really funny. You know, my partner and I, we listened to the sleep stories at night to go to bed because I do therapy all day and sometimes I see anywhere from like 12 to 13 clients. So when I come home I’m like all over the place. So we’ll go to bed at night and we’ll do sleep stories and they have these fabulous stories. It’s from the calm app. So there’s, you go to Bali and then there’s this one on gratitude and it’s this like British actress that does, it’s her voice and oh my gosh. I mean when I heard that one, I could not fall asleep cause I want him to hear the entire message. And so now when I listen to these sleep stories, man, they just put me out. They’re amazing. So I think mindfulness is wonderful because, you know, I recommend it to my clients that have depression that have inside you, that have chronic pain, chronic illness. So it really does help.
Kirsten: It really does. And I, I have found it is so much easier to fall asleep listening to something. And, and part of me is always thought maybe it’s just the fatigue talking like it’s so much easier to fall asleep on someone else is trying to talk to me that like maybe has something to do with that. But I don’t know. I think there’s just something calming and something that can kind of hearkened back to our childhood, right. Of like hearing stories at bedtime and, and getting wrapped up in them.
Dr. Phillips: And that’s, that’s interesting. That’s a great point. Yeah. It takes you back from when you know you were a child and those stories that you are heard and how it calms you down and you know, it was able to help you sleep.
Kirsten: Yeah, I am, I listen to a lot of horror podcasts, um, and I probably shouldn’t listen to them to go to sleep, but I do interesting dreams sometimes.
Dr. Phillips: I can only imagine the dreams that you have listening to those.
Kirsten: I don’t know why. Horror stuff. Um, actually there was a study that came out last year about how for a lot of people with PTSD, um, horror or thriller type things are actually very calming because it matches kind of your, um, kind of the physiological reactions you would normally have to that are very comforting and like normal feeling. Yeah.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense. And someone who watches a lot of horror movies do to, you know, I just got done watching American horror story for the first time. I’ve seen like I’ve seen Murder House, Hotel, Coven, and Apocalypse.
Dr. Phillips: Oh Gosh, uh, Apocalypse I loved, I also loved Coven. I think that might’ve been my favorite season.
Dr. Phillips: Coven is my absolute favorite. It’s shit, isn’t it? Isn’t it amazing? Like the acting and just the Kathy Bates scared the fuck out of me.
Kirsten: Oh my God. Kathy Bates is amazing. Like oh I just, she’s so versatile. Um, oh my gosh.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah, she can do anything. Like when I watched hotel I’m like wow, what a transformation from Coven.
Kirsten: Right. Um, wait til you get into the Roanoke series. That one was really great.
Dr. Phillips: Yes, my partner has seen all of them so he’s making, I’m watching, I’m watching them with them. We’re going to watch Asylum next.
Kirsten: I actually really liked that one too.
Dr. Phillips: They’re all great so far. Hotel, like, actually freaked me out a lot.
Kirsten: Yeah, yeah. I definitely felt creeped out by a lot of it. Yeah,
Dr. Phillips: I did too. But it was amazing. The acting, just everything about it. It’s fantastic. Ryan Murphy is a genius.
Kirsten: He really is like, I just want to have a five minute conversation with him cause I feel like if I do, I’m going to walk away with like 10,000 ideas. You know what I mean? Like
Dr. Phillips: you will, you will. Yeah. Yeah. He’s, he’s amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Sarah Paulson’s amazing. Just everyone in it’s Jessica Lange. I mean she’s a genius.
Kirsten: Yes. It’s been really nice to watch. I think a lot of the younger generation be introduced to some of these kind of older actresses who might not be hip to know through American Horror Story and like watching teenagers know who Kathy Bates is. Like it makes me so happy. Um, fun story real quick. Snoop Dogg has a podcast.
Dr. Phillips: Really?
Kirsten: Yes. And Kathy Bates was on an episode.
Dr. Phillips: Oh that’s amazing.
Kirsten: I think listening to them get high together might be my favorite thing in the entire world. I’m going to have to look that up. It is amazing cause she’s like giggling and it’s just like, I don’t remember what I was going to say and it is just, I don’t know. It’s beautiful.
Dr. Phillips: She was on the lip sync show. And she did some hip hop. I forget which song it was. It’s hysterical. She’s like busting out moves like left and right man. Yeah. You’ve got to watch it. You’ve got to youtube and you got to find a,
Kirsten: I do. That’s amazing. Like she’s great. She is so fantastic. I just want to be her friend.
Dr. Phillips: Me Too. Me Too. Maybe she’ll read my book.
Kirsten: Let’s start a campaign to do it. Let’s do it. It’ll be like Kickstarter, but friends starter.
Dr. Phillips: You know, Gaga has fibromyalgia.
Kirsten: She does. I know. I want to like, I just want to follow her everywhere and see what she does for it so I can copy it. Exactly. Like I know she does like the hot, cold thing. Uh, and I, I mean I kind of do that when I’m in my apartment and then go outside.
Dr. Phillips: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She’s been very open about it and you know, she’s spoken about it and she’s a big advocate for mental health and yeah. Great Person.
Kirsten: Yeah. We, we’ve got to send all these people copies of your book.
Dr. Phillips: We do, we’re going to do a, we’re going to do it.
Kirsten: Okay. Last but not least, what is your favorite thing about yourself?
Dr. Phillips: Humor. I love to laugh. You know, I don’t take anything personal and this profession you can’t, I love laughing. One of the things I do with my patients in therapy is laugh. We laugh all the time. It’s important for them. You know, I see some people that really come in depressed, very broken. And so just by laughing with them and talking, it makes them feel so much better. And then it makes me feel better. You know, I get to, that’s the one thing about my job. I get to go home at the end of the day knowing that I’m helping someone live and just be happy and to try to deal with what they’re dealing with because they’re dealing with a lot of shit. And when you can laugh with someone and listen to them, they’re going to come back.
Kirsten: Absolutely. I always feel like, um, people learn better when they’re having a good time too. So if you’re going through something like trying to share ways to change up a lifestyle, right? Giggling about it is going to make it stick out more in their minds as something positive.
Dr. Phillips: Yes. Yes. So we laugh about illness, you know, um, you know, I have several clients that they fall due to their illness and so they’ll tell me stories about how they went sliding across the floor and then they, and they laughed about it and they’re like, hey I lost my balance and I went for a ride. It was kind of cool. It woke me up and I’m like, Hey, you know, just things like that just it’s just nice to come into a therapy session and I think to do this work, you really can’t be a stick in the mud because someone’s not going to come back. You need to be, that’s why I love, you know, sex therapy because you know, we don’t, I’m just not that serious and session. I’m professional of course and you know, ethical but also like to laugh and have fun and talk about sex.
Kirsten: Cause we know what that’s all about.
Dr. Phillips: Cause it’s fun to talk about sex. Absolutely.
Kirsten: And I think like sex isn’t supposed to be this rigid, um, monotone, really drab thing. Right? Sex is funny. They’re squishy noises. People make funny faces. Like it’s inherently funny.
Dr. Phillips: Oh, it’s hilarious. It’s great to talk about because there’s so much to it. So that’s why I, that’s why I love talking about it. You know, you and I love helping people get creative with their sex. Um, I find that’s one of the, the biggest thing that I really enjoy about my job because I think we’re taught that it’s about missionary and penetration and then you have your orgasm and then you’re done. And no it’s not about that. Penetrative sex is one form of sex. Right? So, you know, there’s different orgasm then, you know, uh, it’s, it’s great. It’s just great. So I love what I do. I’m, I’m hoping that this book will definitely touch the lives of people. It will give them hope. It will give them this idea that they’re not broken, that they can be sexual, that they can live a life that they still want. Um, and that’s the whole goal of this book.
Kirsten: I had a really great time talking with Dr. Phillips and I hope that you had a fun time listening as well. Make sure to check out his site and his social media, which I’ll put in the links, but his website is DrLeePhillips – and Phillips has two L’s in the middle – dot com. For anyone else who’s struggling and might need someone to talk to you. Please know that I am here. I may not always be the best at responding to things, but I’m here and can help sometimes. I cannot always guarantee that I can be the person that can help you or that I am always in a position to help because as you know, uh, not always, especially financially right now, but I’m here and I am a good listener and I am happy to do that for people who need that space. So please feel free to shoot me an email, shoot me a message on social media and I will do what I can to help give you some support.
Kirsten: For now, I hope that you take the rest of your day and do something fun with it when you can. Maybe you’re at work and you don’t get off for a while, but when you get off, treat yourself, get get some ice cream or don’t, I don’t know, do something that you enjoy and that you want to do and something that you don’t always do for yourself. I think that will be important and I think the more we can incorporate that into our day to day lives where we can do one small thing for ourselves, I think it will become far more easy to do what we need to do to take care of ourselves throughout the year. I hope that you have a great day and I will catch you again on April fool’s day and that’s no joke.
Kirsten: Chronic Sex is produced every two weeks by me first and it gives me the from Paddington bear because they’re awesome. You can find show notes and more over chronic sex dot org feared, enjoying listening to the show. Please subscribe and that way you won’t miss a single episode on itunes. It’d be really chill if you take a minute to read the show to not only does it give me great feedback, but it also helps the podcast get seen by people who may not know it exists and that’s pretty cool. You can support us over at patreon.com/chronicsex. As always, you can find links to everything @ chronicsex.org, from social media accounts to resources, sex, toy reviews, and more. Until next time, please take care of yourself. Remember that you are a freaking badass.